The Design Community Killed the Community (or maybe we just get what we give)
Blame is being handed out but I don’t think the finger is being pointed in the right direction. In an article on Drawar.com by longtime design community member, blogger and creator of CSSVault, Scrivs, we’re led to believe that the ones offering the content that the design community wants are the one’s who are killing the community. We’re told that the people authoring blogs have destroyed the design community and it’s spirit of discussion by offering the ever popular list or roundup post. I say that the community itself has caused the decline of design related discussion.
When people decide to blog, I believe that most bloggers do so because they believe they have something to offer readers or they want to provide people with some kind of information or service. No one likes talking to a brick wall or, for that matter, banging their head into one. No one feels good when their hard work goes unnoticed or blatantly ignored. All too often writing a discussion rich blog post gets minimal to no attention and that’s when bloggers notice the crowds flocking to list posts, freebie posts and roundups. The conclusion for the blogger has to be that they aren’t offering the community what it wants and the community not only wants but screams for and rewards the list post.
For an example of what I am talking about lets take a look at two different articles from two different sites posted around the same time. First, an article from wisdump.com titled “Markup Debates: rank priorities, code accordingly”. This article offers multiple discussion points, supplies competing views and leaves the door wide open for a wide variety of discussion to take place, they even went so far as to layout specific questions at the end of the post. How many comments does the article have? 5
Now, compare the wisdump.com article with one from Smashing Magazine titled “50 Beautiful, Free and High-Quality Icon Sets”. This post is, obviously, a list/roundup post. Scroll to the bottom of that post to see the important part as it pertains to my point. How many comments does this list post have? 158
158 comments and no discussion versus 5 comments on a post begging for discussion. Did Smashing Magazine grab those readers and commenters by the hair and drag them kicking and screaming to their post forcing them to make their comments? No. Smashing Magazine simply gave the community what it wanted. How can anyone honestly blame a blog, any blog, for giving the community what it asks for? At what point do we hold the readers accountable? More to the point, when do we hold those people screaming for discussion but failing to offer any themselves accountable and tell them flat out, as I’m doing now, you get what you give and what you have given thus far is horribly lacking.
I agree but I think the point was that Smashing Mag (and similar copycat sites) gave in to following a trend versus coming up with truly original, industry-leading content. Whether led by the community or not, there is plenty of blame to be passed around. When they first started list posts and roundups, I doubt they had any idea the potential impact they would have. Now that they’re huge, it’s time to use their influence for good, not evil, which I believe they’re doing a good job of.
Good discussion to have, but I feel fairly confident the blame should fall on all the copycats, not Smashing Mag or CSSVault. The copycats are the ones who mucked it all up.
@Chris
Thanks for the comment. I agree that the blame definitely does not belong on sites like Smashing Mag or CSSVault but I have a really hard time laying it at the feet of copycats as well. Yes, there are those out there that do it because it’s easy and it’s a cash cow but there are also those out there that do it because the crowd and interest for anything else is simply non-existent. I think that’s where the problem really lies.
It especially annoys when I find a great article, do my best to pass it around and it still only generates a handful of comments then I find one with hundreds of comments wondering where all the conversation and discussion is. We, as a community have to be willing to participate. We have to support change and show that there is a market for something other than what the copycats give us and I’m just not seeing that kind of support from the design community at large.
Commenting, writing and discussing topics takes a certain amount of thought, which sadly most people are not willing to invest. I think instead of pointing blame on readers or bloggers we should just focus on learning and sharing. I blog because it helps me learn and share knowledge – which is the most powerful thing about the design community.
I don’t see a problem with lists my self. I don’t always want to discuss – often a good list of what’s new is all i’m looking for.
Your comparison of wisdump.com and smashing magazine should include the average number of readers before you can compare them. Perhaps finding the two types of blog posts on the same blog would be a better example.
I often find combinations of unique content and lists the most useful. You get valuable information and it’s easy to scan the content. E.g. http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/other/top-20-mysql-best-practices/
Eric, is good that someone is calling out publishers on this. I have to agree with Chris that you cant blame Smashing Mag, but the copy cats. As a designer I do find the resources they provide very useful, but not when 100 other blogs copy the same type of content.
My RSS reader has been overwhelmed so much by blogs going the “Top 10 List” rout that I have to barf.
I guess all you can say is that when someone finds a product that work, there are always imitators trying to grab a piece of the market (or traffic). (aka Shamwow vs. Zorbeez)
@ Niki
Good point. I know that I’ve learned a lot in my short time being involved in the design community. I hope that more people, including myself, can focus more on the learning a sharing aspect of what we do here online as designers and bloggers.
@ Martin
Totally agree. Sometimes I just want to see “50 Amazing Photomanipulaitons” and sometimes I want to discuss the use of < h1> tags in titles and logos. I think there’s room for both if we take some time support both.
You’re correct about my comparison, it’s a bit poor. I should have done a better job with that and I’m sure I could find both types of articles on one blog.
@Matt
I see your point but still think that if the community would show more support for original content there wouldn’t be as big of a problem with copycats.
I agree, as long as the product works and there is big enough of a demand the supply will be there.
I’m just glad the topic is being discussed and opinions are being formed. No matter your stance on list post copycats, you have to agree that the community is benefitting from the discussion on both sides.
We’ve been using the same ‘lure’ in all types of media for decades, the web is no different. List posts aren’t going to go away. But hopefully they can get better. Instead of a list of 100, why not a list of the 10 best, and an insightful paragraph on each item? List posts can be done right, and serve the community as well thought out archive of some of the best code & content examples, with author commentary.
Why wouldn’t an author want to personalize a list post? He/she can garner the hits from a list posting, and at the same time, share opinion and viewpoints, all while build a personal branded connection to the site, instead of an androgynous numbered list of URL with no human touch at all. If the copycats at least recognize this incentive we’re on a better course.
@Wayne
I’m glad this conversation is happening too and I am happy to inject a different view into the discussion. I don’t think anyone can deny that a topic like this can only improve the design community which is what both sides, I think, ultimately want.
I agree with you that list posts can be better and I think if more bloggers are shown that their opinion is wanted and engaged with we can count on more thoughtful lists with personal touches. Obviously this is something that needs to be worked on from all sides. Bloggers need to do better and readers need to engage, comment and discuss. I’m going to make a sincere effort to do both from now on.
Excellent post. The community requires a discursive environment that promotes healthy debate. While having said that, it is going to take a massive effort to change the current mentality of “round-up” posts because at the end of the day, the websites that excel in terms of unique page-views are the spaces which provide ‘tangible’ resources that designers can actually use for their own projects. I think posts like these would certainly help in initiating a change.
I am totally fed up with list posts, but I can’t blame the webmasters of sites that provide them for wanting to give the bulk of their audiences what they seem to want. However, to quote your last paragraph:
“158 comments and no discussion versus 5 comments on a post begging for discussion.”
Of those 158 comments, 99 percent are one liners along the lines of “These icons rock, thank you!”. I don’t acknowledge that as a discussion, and I’d be willing to bet that a large number of those commenters only commented in order to get a link to their blog on a popular page (I’ve certainly done that in the past).
Conversely, the other example you give has only five comments, but they are all from people giving a valid opinion or argument on the subject; quality over quantity.
So, I’d be inclined to agree with Scrivs on this one – the pressure on bloggers to provide these mammoth list posts (in order to attract more visitors to their sites) seems to be lessening the frequency of posts that actually invite opinion.
Eric, a great response to my article. Overall of course the community is to blame for what is going on because if nobody is linking to or visiting poorly written lists posts (remember there is a place for them when they are quality) then people would probably start writing them. I used Smashing as an example as the site that seems to have started the trend and led everyone else along. They are now working on producing higher quality content so it seems we will all win in the end. It is up to the community now to respond in a similar fashion.
As for the comparison of Wisdump to Smashing, the traffic numbers have already been brought up, but who is to say that having 5 comments isn’t just as good as 150 if those 5 comments are of high quality. In my article on Drawar, half the comments might have been by me, but it seems most people found the discussion to be of high quality. Too often we get caught up in the numbers and this leads us to believe that some posts aren’t as good as others.
I actually enjoyed my Web Standards Mafia article more than then Smashing one and it has received FAR less traffic, comments and linkbacks. That doesn’t mean that I am going to stick with controversial posts that call out people and sites though just so I can get the numbers up. Just provide quality every chance you get and some posts will stick and some won’t. At the end of the day at least you can be proud of what you are pushing out.
@Josh
Thanks for giving your thoughts. I think you’re correct in saying that it will take a massive effort to change how the roundup posts are done. I hope that Scrivs and I have offered a little more food for thought and started people thinking about the things we can each do to exact this change.
@Mark
Thanks. I, too, open up my reader and let out a sigh when I see 50-100 list posts and I think that if the community wants that to change we have to provide the incentive for it to happen with our views and by joining in on discussions.
My main gripe and reason for the, as pointed out before, poor comparison came about because of the amount of people that complain about list posts yet don’t join the discussion when a post asking for one is available.
@Scrivs
Thanks for replying to the post. I really appreciate your input and I hope that both our articles on the topic will help inspire others to post more topics and discussions like it.
I agree Smashing Mag is doing well with their new, higher quality posts. I hope that the community will continue to support their efforts by participating in the discussions they’re trying to have. Since, SM does depend on a certain amount of income to pay their authors and hosting and such I think they’re taking a real chance and trusting that all the people wanting discussion will show up.
There is a trend to look too much at the numbers when it comes to determining the worth of a post and one should be proud of just creating a well thought out, informative post but I think there are other things to consider. No one likes to toil in anonymity and most bloggers, I believe, want to feel like they’re making a difference. I don’t know how long I would have wanted to be a web designer if no one ever wanted me to design them a site. Likewise, how long will bloggers want to produce quality posts if no one or only a small handful of people give them feedback or views. The numbers that a site produces, I agree, shouldn’t be AS important as they are but I can’t deny the fact that they still play an important personal and motivational role.
I unsubscribed from a feed today because 9 of the 10 new items contained list posts. I’m sick of them and sick of the copycat sites that spew them out.
It’s nice to see that SM is listening to the feedback and are reducing the number of list posts.
Why can’t more of the posts be like those on tutsplus?!
Great post and discussion, both from the original post on Drawar and this subsequent post inspired by it. I have one thought to add: isn’t it really all about money? You said:
“When people decide to blog, I believe that most bloggers do so because they believe they have something to offer readers or they want to provide people with some kind of information or service.”
I started blogging for that very same reason, but as I have moved further down the path I have noticed that blogging as a source of income creates a new motivation for the types of posts that are published on many design (and other) blogs. I tend to think that most of the copycats saw the financial/advertising success (and numbers) of Smashing Mag and thought they could replicate the formula to generate their own advertisement-driven income source. Hence the sea we are all drowning in of list after roundup after best of posts. It’s now a slew of blogs that were started for money, not for artistic or creative expression and informational servitude.
Just an observation. Thanks for providing a forum for this discussion and spurring it on. Hopefully this will be another cog in the machine that motivates change in the design community. After all, the first step is admitting we have a problem…
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@Keith
That’s the best way to let authors know that you want something other than lists on their blogs. To add to it you could send them an email politely explaining why you chose to unsubscribe from their blog.
@Brian
Call me an idealist.
I want to believe that everyone has noble intentions when starting a design blog but I know that there are those out there just looking for a payout. That’s when I think it falls onto the community to show those kinds of people that advertising and regurgitated lists aren’t what we’re here for by not visiting or linking to their posts. If we remove the source of their income I don’t think they’ll stick around long but as long as the community continues to reward them they’ll always be there.